Did Dinosaurs Existed in Noah’s Great Flood?

 Dinosaurs in Noah’s Great Flood?

Yesterday, I attended a talk in Evangel Bible-Presbyterian Church in Oval Damansara in Kuala Lumpur. The talk was on Creation given by two scientists, Dr Don Batten and Dr Kee Fui Kon.

Dr Don Batten spoke about the evolution of life on earth, and Dr Kee on Noah’s Great Flood in the eyes of the Church against the eyes of science. Their view was that the Creation of Earth took only 7 days as mentioned in Genesis of the Bible, and the Great Flood of Noah together with the existence of dinosaurs according to Dr Kee took place only a few thousand years ago, and not millions of years ago.  

As I am a bit short of hearing I could not catch up with what they spoke. But here’s my independent personal view as a scientist myself.

Before we write, most people ask, during the Great Flood of Noah, how was it possible to accommodate huge terrible lizards like dinosaurs, and in pairs too into his ark?

Before we answer, let’s look at the timeline on the creation of Earth and life on Earth in the eyes of Science.

Mya here stands for “millions of years ago.”  

1. 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago (Mya). Accretion of Earth

2. 4,200 million years ago (Mya) Atmosphere and oceans form

3. 4,000 million years ago (Mya) Prebiotic chemistry became possible

4. 3,800 million years ago RNA world shown by the first chemical fossil

available (viruses)

5. 3,600 million years ago the first DNA protein life came into existence

6. 3,500 million years ago LUCA: Archaea / Bacteria spilt and also

photosynthesis (autotrophy) began.

7. 2,700 – 1,900 million years ago the first eukaryotes / sexual reproduction

became possible.

8. 1,000 Mya?

9. 650 Mya Metazoans

10. 575 Oldest large organisms

11. 555 Mya Oldest sponge fossils

12. 542 – 488 Mya Cambrian Radiation

13. 525 Mya Earliest vertebrates

14. 440 Mya First vascular land plants

15. 425 Mya First jawed vertebrates

16. 420 Mya Earliest terrestrial animals

17. 396 Mya First insects

18. 365 Mya Plants evolves seeds and first tetrapods

19. 354 Mya Insects flight

20. 350 Mya First land-dwelling vertebrates

21. 240 Mya First dinosaurs

22. 210 Mya First mammals

23. 200 Mya Pangea breakup begins

24. 150 Mya Archaeopteryx / birds flight

25. 140 Mya Flowering plants

26. 128 – 124 Dinosaurs flight

27. 125 Mya Mammalian gliding flight

28. 105 – 95 Mya Gondwanaland breakup

29. 90- 80 Mya Formation of Galapagos geological hot spot

30. 57 – 53 Mya Whale ancestor

31. 55 Mya Australia breaks away from Antarctica

32. 51 Mya Mammalian powered flights (bats)

33. 50 Mya First fossil Equidae

34. 45.6 Whale ancestor

35. 40 Mya Primate order diverges

36. 35 Mya First grasses evolve

37. 30 Mya Old-world / new-world monkey spilt

38. 25 Mya Old-world monkey / apes split. Also, Drosophila melanogaster / D. obscura split

39. 15 Mya Apes migrate to Asia

40. 6 -7 Mya Sahelanthropus

41. 5 - 4 Mya: Common ancestors of chimps and humans. Formation of current

Galapagos Islands

42. 3.6 Mya Panama Isthmus rise / Lucy fossil / Australopithecus afarensis

footprints

43. 2.5 Mya Tool use

44. 1.8 Mya Homo habilis out of Africa

45. 1.6 Mya Homo erectus in Asia

46. 600,000 years ago Human / Neanderthal split

47. 500,000 years ago Homo erectus use fire

48. 355,000 Homo heidelbergensis footprints

49. 200,000 years ago Anatomically modern human

50. 250,000 – 160,000 Homo sapiens

51. 120,000 Homo language possible

52. 100,000 years ago Wolf / dog split

53. 79,000 – 15,000 years ago Start of Wisconsin glaciations

54. 50,000 years ago. Humans migrate from Asia to Australia

55. 45,000 years ago. Megafauna extinction in Australia

56. 30,000 years ago. Human migration from Asia to North America

57. 14,000 – 10,000 years ago. Domestication of dog and Megafauna extinction

in North America

58. 12,000 years ago. Early agriculture

59. 8,000 years ago Domestication of cattle

60. 6,000 years ago Domestication of horse

61. 3,000 years ago Iron tools

Major extinctions of life took place during:

62. 445 Mya in the Late Ordovician

63. 375 Mya Late Devonian

64. 251 Mya End Permian

65. 200 Mya Late Triassic

66. 65 Mya Cretaceous-Tertiary

We shall now concentrate on the Cambrian Radiation that happened 542 – 488 million years ago in the eyes of science as I see it.

 555 million years ago when the oldest sponge existed, there was no question of Noah bringing only sponges into his ark. Much after down the timeline of life on Earth were the dinosaurs where people often ask how could Noah bring in all those “terrible lizards” in pairs into his ark?

 Let’s have a look at this problem when non-bird dinosaurs lived between about 245 and 66 million years ago, in a time known as the Mesozoic Era. This was many millions of years before the first modern humans, Homo sapiens, appeared.

But before we discuss further, calculation of the date of the flood based on literal interpretation of the Old Testament has been a scholarly activity for two millennia. The seventeenth century estimate given by the Irish Bishop James Ussher has been acknowledged among many of the devout.

The calculation is undertaken by adding the genealogies beginning in Genesis 11:10. This is the account of Shem: Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became father of Arphaxad. Arphaxad is then designated father to Shelah, Shelah to Eber, Eber to Pelg, and so on until Abram and his successors which eventually brings one to the division of the kingdom at the death of Solomon.

In this way, Bishop Ussher computed that the earth had been created in 4004 BC and that the flood occurred in 2350 BC which was henceforth accepted as the "traditional" biblical date, (though there is rival literal interpretation similarly inspired, setting the date at 2459 BC). These traditional chronologies were acceptable among the learned until the foundations of religion were shaken by Darwin and a succession of natural historians including George Curier, William Buckland, and finally, that " high priest of uniformitarianism" Charles Lyell, who collectively contribute to the modern, predictable, comfortable, uniform, manageable version of the world that we know, that puts the Great Flood of Noah far earlier than believed by the church using evidence-based records. Science showed Earth was created between 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago, and not in a few thousand years?

Now let’s return to the Great Flood of Noah. The timing of Noah's flood, according to biblical chronology, would place it thousands of years before the Cambrian explosion, which occurred around 541 million years ago. Therefore, it happened long before the Cambrian explosion, which marks a significant period in Earth's history characterized by the rapid diversification of life forms.

I asked Dr Kee after his talk if the dinosaurs came before the Cambrian Radiation or after that, he told me it was before the Cambrian Explosion, and that happened only a few thousand, and not a few million years ago as taught by science. 

If the Great Flood occurred before the Cambrian radiation where there was no vast diversity of life on Earth it would mean the absence of very large reptiles like the dinosaurs for which it would be almost for Noah to accommodate even just one into his ark let alone a pair of each.

Before the Cambrian Period there were only small life form and the majority of living organisms on the whole were small, unicellular organisms including worms, stromatolite, trilobites, anomalocaris, Opabinia regalis and halkieriids and simple Ediacaran fauna. There were no other  animals two of its kind as describe in Genesis. 

The International Commission on Stratigraphy lists the Cambrian Period as beginning at 538.8 million years ago and ending at 485.4 million years ago. There were no large animals like dinosaurs and flying reptiles then.
Dinosaurs are a diverse group of reptiles of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, between 243 and 233.23 million years ago (mya), although the exact origin and timing of the evolution of dinosaurs is a subject of active research. They became the dominant terrestrial vertebrates after the Triassic–Jurassic extinction event 201.3 mya and their dominance continued throughout the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods. The fossil record shows that birds are feathered dinosaurs, having evolved from earlier theropods during the Late Jurassic epoch, and are the only dinosaur lineage known to have survived the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event approximately 66 mya. Dinosaurs can therefore be divided into avian dinosaurs—birds—and the extinct non-avian dinosaurs, which are all dinosaurs other than birds.

Since dinosaurs are huge reptiles and “terrible lizards” many of them flying, it would almost be impossible for Noah to catch them and put them into his ark along with huge amounts of food they would need for 40 days and 40 nights of continuous rain.

Dinosaurs are not one type of reptile, but many types. How could it be possible to bring all of them into Noah’s ark often people ask, including the various types of food they need.  Some of the dinosaurs are huge and very massive. How could Noah possibly catch them and in pairs too, males and females?  The amount of food to feed all these animals would be beyond any ship or ark. Some of the dinosaurs are flying reptiles.  How could Noah catch flying reptiles and flying birds.

The logistics of fitting all dinosaurs, along with other diverse species, onto Noah's Ark present significant challenges from a practical standpoint. Large dinosaurs would indeed require vast amounts of space and resources, including food, water, and suitable habitats. Additionally, capturing and transporting such massive creatures, along with ensuring the presence of both males and females, would be immensely difficult.
As for flying reptiles and birds, capturing and accommodating them on an Ark would pose additional challenges, especially given their ability to fly. It's worth noting that religious interpretations of the story of Noah's Ark often involve miraculous elements or divine intervention to address these logistical difficulties. Some believers view the story as allegorical rather than a literal historical event, while others may interpret it differently based on their faith tradition.

Ultimately, reconciling religious narratives with scientific understanding often involves a nuanced approach that respects both faith perspectives and empirical evidence. Many religious individuals and communities find ways to integrate their faith beliefs with scientific knowledge, recognizing that both can offer valuable insights into the mysteries of the natural world.

My feeling is, if the Great Flood came before the Cambrian Period where there were only small creatures, or long after the dinosaurs became extinct except the birds that are “glorified reptiles” then it may be a possibly to accommodate the much lesser species of life.

It is clearly said “after forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.

But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water all over the surface of the earth; so, it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.”

(Genesis 8: 6 – 12)

These verses clearly showed the Great Flood came only after the dinosaurs were no more there and only raven and doves replaced them as “gloried reptiles.” This means to me, there was no question of Noah accommodating huge reptiles of all kinds into his ark. It may have happened long after the Cambrian Period and long after the dinosaurs disappeared.

But there is a problem here. If it was long after the Cambrian Period, let us say, from 63 million years ago when  primates and  split into two groups, known as the haplorrhines (dry-nosed primates) and the strepsirrhines (wet-nosed primates) appeared  till 47 million years ago when early whales that gave birth appeared 47 million years ago,  then Noah would still have to deal with an enormously large species of animals that were already evolved. Currently, scientists estimate there are at least between 8 – 10 million species of life on Earth. If the Great Flood occurred in 2350 BC after earth was created in 4004 BC as claimed by the church, then Noah will still have to deal with at least 6 -8 million species of life, and in pairs too, for him to put them into his ark? This is a sheer impossible task, far more difficult than accommodating huge and small dinosaurs?

The logistics of fitting all species onto Noah's Ark, is indeed a challenge to reconcile the biblical narrative with our understanding of biodiversity. Some religious interpretations suggest that the animals brought onto the Ark were representative pairs, rather than every single species, while others view the story as allegorical rather than literal.

But if the Great Flood occurred before the Cambrian Explosion when much less species of life existed, then according to scientists, Noah must have existed 541 million years ago where no humans was around except Noah and all those generations that came before him?

I don’t think neither the Church nor Science can solve this dilemma?  

Then we also have another problem to answer. Was the flood of Noah localized or worldwide and where did the water go after the flood?

The story of Noah's flood, as described in the Bible, is typically interpreted as a worldwide event. However, interpretations vary among different religious and cultural beliefs. As for where the water went after the flood, some interpretations suggest it receded back into the oceans and other bodies of water, while others propose that it evaporated or was absorbed into the earth.

If it was a worldwide event, then the entire Earth will be covered with water. This means there is no possibility for all the waters to drain into the oceans as the whole earth itself is an ocean.

The concept of a worldwide flood raises questions about the feasibility of such an event given our understanding of Earth's hydrology and the vast diversity of life. It's a topic that has been debated among scholars, scientists, and theologians for centuries, with varying interpretations and explanations offered.

Ultimately, interpretations of religious texts like the story of Noah's flood can vary widely based on individual beliefs, cultural traditions, and scholarly analysis. Integrating these interpretations with scientific understanding often involves nuanced perspectives and ongoing dialogue between faith and reason. See my write up on this here: 

Was The Great Flood of Noah a Global Event? And Where Did the Rains Got Its Waters

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/search?q=flood+of+noah

But the church claims the creation of Earth and Noah Flood occurred only a few thousand years, and not millions of years ago as scientists calculated. Who is right? This debate has been going on for centuries.

The Church believes the entire Creation of Earth took only 7 days accordingly to Genesis in the Bible, whereas Science say it took 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago for Earth to be form properly till 200,000 years ago for anatomically modern hominids to exist, 250,000 – 160,000 years for Homo sapiens like Noah to exist, and 120,000 Homo language becoming possible.

I think the difficulty between God and us is, we tend to interpret “one day” given in Genesis as our time of 24 hours a day, and not the Maker and Creator (God) time which to Him “one day” is actually millions of years to us. Mortal humans can only live up to 100 years maximum, but God is eternal. There is no match.

It is clearly stated there “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night” (Psalm 90:4).

“You do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away” (James 4:14).

But if anyone at all, whether from the church or outside thinks that these verses are not correct by equating his time and lifespan against the eternity of God by claiming his "one day" is the same as God "one day" given as "morning and evening" of creation in Genesis, is a highly arrogant, self-conceited person who equates himself with God. Such a person is both scientifically and spiritually blind. He must as well delete both these two verses in the Bible and replace them with his own version to read as: 

"For a thousand years in thy sight is the same as my thousand years here on earth, and thy one day in creation in Genesis is the same as my one day that I see here on earth, and my life is not a vapour that vanishes away" 

See explanation on: 

The Origin of Heavens and Earth: Science vs The Bible

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2024/

But are we willing to accept these verses given in the Bible as gospel truth, or do we wish to delete them to equate our time and our lifespan as the same as that of God? This decision is up to us to decide by using our own arrogance and conceited thinking. To me, time is eternal for God, whereas my lifespan can last at most 100 years. This means for me, when God says He created heavens and earth in 7 days, he uses His eternal time scale to measure, and not my time.

This is the same as, for instance, a scientist as a creator, carries out an experiment on rats for 100 days. A scientist would naturally use his human time as a creator of the experiment to measure the length of his experiment on rats and not use rat’s time to measure that can live usually for only between 12 to 18 months. Even if we take the human lifespan of a 100 years (36,525 days) and say, at maximum of 2 years (730 day) for a rat, then the rat’s life span is only 0.02 that of a human. There is just no comparison. How could we be so arrogant as to use rat’s time as our standard of reference. Naturally we will use our human time as a creator of our own experiment for our own creation on rats. We will write down the time we took and record this down as understood without one iota of argument and publish the experiment in a scientific journal because this is understood. No scientist would measure the time taken of his own creation of his own experiment using rat’s time, unless he is insane. Don’t we wish to respect God the Creator for using His time as His standard of reference given in Genesis?  It was His own experiment on Creation, He thinks fit and appropriate than insisting it was our time in days that numbered. 

Let us give ourselves another example. Let us say on average a rat lives up to 15 months (450 days) and the experiment by a scientist as a creator took 100 days. This is already 22 % of the rat’s life span. The rat sees it as a very long time in its life for the experiment (creation) to complete, but for the scientist who created the experiment it is only 450 / 36525 x 100 = 1.2 % of his life span to complete the experimental creation. There is no comparison here, let alone just 4.5 billion years in the creation of Earth in the eyes of a scientist who measured it compared it to time eternal for God, making billions of years tending towards zero in time for Him but a very long time for us. We need to respect this scientific and spiritual truth, and not measure length of time using our own personal yardstick. If we do not agree with this mathematical truth, then just delete all the verses in Genesis and replace them with our own. 

Don’t we think so?  If we do not agree, then we should also delete both verses, Psalm 90:4 and James 4:14 and replace them with your own thinking and your own version. But leave me out because you are more scientific, more educated and more intelligent than anyone else.   

But if we can accept this, and fully respect God, and not use our own human mortal thinking, then both the Church and Science will be aligned perfectly in agreement with each other on the length of Creation, and they will not be antagonists to each other anymore. Respect God to the highest whatever He wrote there in His own words in Genesis, and never insist on using our own human version that causes confusion to others and leads them astray.

To interpret the verses in Genesis literally word-by-word, verse-by-verse on the 7 days God needed to take for creation is no different from Nicodemus, the ruler of the Jews. Nicodemus was a very wise and learned person, but he could not understand the meaning of ‘being born again’ He interpreted what Jesus said to him literally in John 3:1-7 asking how can a person who was already old enter into his mother’s womb to be born again? The same if we believe God took 7 days in the eyes, when scientists the world over through their tens of years of research and hard labour tell us it took thousands of millions of years for Earth and the evolution of life to take place. Science is evidence-based, not literal blind acceptance. This is because when we are blind, we tend to interpret the verses written in Genesis literally and accept them literally using our own interpretation and thinking instead of looking them through the eyes of God who wrote them there.   

In short, it depends how you read and intepret time written in the Bible, and time as measured and seen in in the eyes of man 

Furthermore, when Earth was first formed in Creation, the rotation of Earth was much faster. Scientists have calculated the length of the day was less than 6 hours. The Earth’s rotation currently has slowed it down to 24 hours due to the loss of rotational energy caused by tidal frictions and the braking action of the Moon that causes tides twice a day on both sides of Earth.

So, does the church interpret that each day of creation took only 6 or 24 hours?  Which is which? Then explain to us and give us your answer.  I think it would be more respectful to God as a Creator if we use His time written as “one day” as equivalent to millions of years of our time in creation and evolution. This will instantly solve all our headaches between the Church and the scientific community. 

In due respect to other people's thinking, I don't use my earthly human days and thinking to count heavenly days. It will give me a headache.   

See also: 

Did Noah Bring in All those Billions of Life Forms into his Ark?

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/search?q=noah+flood

See also my write up on “headaches and how to cure them here.”

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2024/04/migraine-and-headaches-how-to-deal-with.html

- lim ju boo 

 

 

Did Noah Bring in All those Billions of Life Forms into his Ark?

Following my blog write up here:

                                     

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/?zx=6002ef2770615bb7

 

someone in “My Friend” WhatsApp group then was asking how did Noah preserve and store all those foods, probably in their tens of hundreds of tons for the animals he brought into his ark without refrigerators or any form of refrigeration? I have not even thought of this problem before.

 

Yes, that was a very relevant and interesting question as it rained for 40 days, and 40 nights, and this was a very long time for food to be preserved. But the Bible didn’t tell how that was done. I suppose the Bible is not a science book or a book on food science, food technology or on food quality control to describe all those logistics.

 

But I believe even without refrigeration, food can be preserved and kept for a very long time especially plant-based foods like hay, straws, grasses, fodders and dry feeds.

 

All these foods for animals can be dried in the sun before the rains come for Noah and his family as the adage says “make hay while the sun shines”.

 

I also suspect most of the animals Noah brought into his ark were grass-eating animals and plant feeders and were not meat-eaters like lions, tigers and crocodiles.

 

But what bewilders me was how it was possible for Noah to bring in so many species of animals into his ark. 

 

Exceeding 99% of the estimated four or five billion species that have evolved on Earth have now gone extinct. At least nearly 1,000 species are now gone over the last five hundred years.

 

The Cambrian Period was part of the Paleozoic Era. This period extended from 541 million to 485.4 million years ago when it saw the most prolific explosion of life on this planet, Earth has ever known.

 

This period produced the most intense burst of evolution ever known. We call this the Cambrian Radiation. It witnessed an incredible diversity of life that emerged, including many major animal groups in existence till today.

 

Most of them were the lower life forms like chordates to which animals with backbones (vertebrates) like humans belong.

 

However, there were at least four major extinctions that befell during the Cambrian Radiation. The first extinction occurred at the Early Cambrian epoch boundary. During that event, the oldest group of trilobites, the olnellids, perished as well as the primary reef-building organisms, the archaeocyathids.

 

 

The remaining three disappearances were irregularly distributed around the Late Cambrian epoch boundary. On the whole, it severely affected the trilobites, brachiopods, and conodonts.

 

 

It was believed that Noah was born in 2448 B.C. in Shulon, East Eden. He died 1848 B.C. in Salem, Cannan. Noah was then five hundred years old; and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. ' (Genesis 5:32). This means the Great Flood occurred between those two periods. That period was 485 million years after the Cambrian Period when most life, at least the lower forms of life had already evolved.

 

 

It was mostly the phyla that originated then, but there's been so much turnover that the families and orders got replaced and became non-existent over the past 500 million years, most critically during the Ordovician Radiation, the Permian mass extinction, the Mesozoic marine revolution and the KT extinction.

 

 

Cambrian Period, earliest time division of the Paleozoic Era, extending from 541 million to 485.4 million years ago. But we are not clear how many species of life were evolved then. But we are sure there were no mammals then.

 

More than 17,000 species are known to have survived until the mega-extinction that ended the Permian period 251 million years ago.

 

But I think it was about 3.6 million years ago that human-like Australopithecus afarensis footprints were seen as well as the emergence of more advanced animals. These animals were seen in the Galapagos Islands by Naturalist Charles Darwin. It was then also a rise of other mammals in the Panama Isthmus and advanced animals probably Noah brought into his ark millions of years later.

 

True humans like Adam and Eve emerged after all animals including apes, chimpanzees and other hominids were created or evolved. 

Before them it was clear the plants were created first as described in Genesis 11 to provide oxygen through phtosynthesis before all other air-breathing creatures became possible.

It is also clear that life evolved from the oceans and seas first, then the birds of the air as given in Genesis 20 - 27.

Later other land creatures came into existence before humans were created.

Then out of the oceans and seas, the fishes and all other aquatic creatures came into being before they became reptiles to creep into dry land where they further evolved into "glorifed reptiles" as birds of the air

This tallies beautifully from what we know in the time scale on the evolution of life on earth.

See 4 Billion Years of Life Creation here:

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2021/02/4-billion-years-of-life-creation.html

It was around 2.5 million years ago then tools were used by humans 

 

Noah came much later after Adam and Eve. As mentioned, Noah was born in 2,448 B.C. which was approximately 4,448 years ago. By then a good number of warm-blooded animals and mammals besides humans were already in existence, but how many species of animals or even hominids as described in Genesis 6 before the Flood became possible we are uncertain. 

 

Conservatively, we may put them at least 100,000 versus 5,500 mammals currently. Some half the species have since gone extinct since Noah’s time, whether destroyed by the Great Flood or through Natural Selection we are unclear.

 

Even at these very conservative numbers on mammals alone, not counting reptiles and other cold-blooded animals, that was an awful lot of animals even if just one each in a pair Noah needed to accommodate into his ark?

 

Our question and a very pertinent one is, would it totally be impossible for Noah to collect all those few billion types of life, in pairs too, to accommodate them into his ark, and also supply all of them with food for 40 days and 40 nights during rains and the Great Flood?

 

 

Then what about all those aquatic animals like various types of fishes, different kinds of whales, sharks, manta ray, seals, dolphins, etc. Were they left alone into the seas and waters or were they also brought into the ark? Were all these sea creatures also destroyed by the Great Inundation.

 

In the insect world, scientists specializing in taxonomy documented there are currently more than 1 million species of insects alone.  Among the insects, ants are the most abundant. These colonial hymenopterans may number to the tune of 10-100,000 trillion individuals globally among the more than 10,000 species.

 

In the Order of Coleoptera, beetles are known to have some 350,000 documented species. For instance, in the United States alone, there are nearly 30,000 types of beetles known. These figures are constantly rising from new species being found.

 

Insects evolved at the same time as the earliest land plants around 480 million years ago, an international study revealed. The earliest fossil evidence for insects is dated at around 400 million years old, but the new study uses genetic techniques to corroborate estimates that they evolved much earlier.

 

Hence, we can safely conclude insects alone have long existed even before Noah. Our question would be, did Noah included all those insects, ants and beetles in pair as into his ark? After all, insects zoologically-speaking are also animals? 

 

What about the bacteria, microbes, worms and parasites? Were these 

also brought into the ark? Worms, insects too are zoologically classified as animals.   

 

Another controversy much discussed by the church, debated by scientists and asked by the ordinary man-in-the-street is, was the great flood just localized or regional event, and where did the rains get all those waters?  I shall write on this later. 

 

 

But as far as the number of species of life existed during Noah's time,

and how many types and species he put inside his ark; I am afraid my current knowledge does not allow me to answer some of these issues.  

 

 

Maybe someone else more enlightened may be able to answer 

 

I am willing to learn from them. 

 

jb

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was The Great Flood of Noah A Global Event? And Where Did The Rains Got Its Waters

Was the Great Inundation of Noah a global event, and where did the rain waters came from?

Subsequent to two articles about Noah, dinosaurs, food supply and their preservation, the number of animal spieces that could be accommodated into his ark I wrote a day or two earlier here:

 https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/search?q=noah+and+dinosaurs

https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2022/07/following-my-blog-write-up-here.html

 there was another question a church friend asked me several hours ago, if the Great Flood during Noah’s time was a global event, or was it just localized around the region where Noah built his ark. I decided to pen my thoughts on this as well. 

In order to answer this, let’s look at Genesis 8:4 that says, “and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

Let take three of the world’s highest mountains:

Mount Everest in the Himalayas in Nepal and Tibet at 8,850 metres (29,035 feet), followed by Mount Godwin Austen in Karakoram, Pakistan-China at 8,610 metres (28,250 feet), and Mt. Kangchenjunga, Himalayas, India-Nepal at 8586 meters (28.169 feet).

(1 foot = 0.3048 metre).

Mount Ararat is located in the Eastern Anatolia Region of Turkey between the provinces of Agrı and Igdır, near the border with Iran, Armenia and Nakhchivan exclave of Azerbaijan, between the Aras and Murat rivers. The Serdarbulak lava plateau, at 2,600 meters of elevation, separates the peaks of Greater and Little Ararat.  Mount Ararat's summit is located some 16 km (10 mi) west of the Turkey-Iran border and 32 km (20 mi) south of the Turco-Armenian border. The Ararat plain runs along its northwest to western side. Ararat is the third most prominent mountain in West Asia.

An elevation of 5,165 m (16,946 ft) for Mount Ararat is given by some encyclopaedias and reference works such as Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary and Encyclopaedia of World Geography. However, a number of sources, such as the United States Geological Survey and numerous topographic maps indicate that the alternatively widespread figure of 5,137 m (16,854 ft) is probably more accurate. The current elevation may be as low as 5,125 m (16,814 ft) due to the melting of its snow-covered ice cap.  

Let us assume during Noah’s time the climate was much colder, and the height of Mount Ararat covered by ice And snow where the ark rested as given in Genesis 8:4 was 5,165 metres.

Let us take a look at three highest mountains as examples for comparison.

Mount Everest in the Himalayas in Nepal and Tibet at 8,850 metres (29,035 feet), followed by Mount Godwin Austen in Karakoram, Pakistan-China at 8,610 metres (28,250 feet), and Mt. Kangchenjunga, Himalayas, India-Nepal at 8586 meters (28.169 feet).

This means, Everest is 41.6 %, Godwin Austen 40.0 % and Kangchenjunga 39.8 % higher than Mt. Ararat. Probably three mountains among others higher than Mt. Ararat were not affected by the global inundation if the flood waters did not rise far higher than Mt. Ararat?

Let us assume the flood water at maximum was at the elevation of Mt. Ararat where the ark rested, and was not higher. Even at that level, rains that poured for 40 days and 40 nights would not be a regional, let alone a localized event, but an incident that would have flooded the entire planet Earth except the highest mountains.

Our next dilemma would be the amount of rainfall, and how much water that would that be to rise up  above sea level? Let us now make some simple calculations.

We know the average radius of Earth was and is still the same at 6,371 kilometres (6,371,000 metres) with a 0.3% variability (±10 km). If the water rose to 5,165 metres which is or was the elevation of Mt. Ararat, it will add to 6,376,165 metres in radius. This means there was an addition water volume above the oceans given by new volume minus the volume of Earth prescribed by the V2 – V1 (4/3 π r^ 3), where V1 is the radius of Earth at sea level, and V2 is the additional and final volume after the rains and great flood.

This works out to be an additional 1.0858 x 10^21 – 1.0832 x 10^21 = 2.6 x ^18 (2,600 000,000,000,000,000 ) cubic metres of water to cover up to Mt. Ararat.

The total surface area of Earth is given by 4πr², where r is the radius of Earth at 6,371,000 metres).  This works out to be: 4π × (6.371×10^6)²  = 5.100644719×10¹⁴ (510.1 trillion) square metres.

But the rains blasted for 40 days and 40 nights (960 hours) non-stop, each hour the rain delivered 5.31 cubic metres of water per square metre uniformly spread out all over the surface of this Earth till it reached to the top of Mt. Ararat.

Such an inundation was clearly no longer a local phenomenon, but a global flood event, and I am not interested in what others say, but my calculations here clearly showed the flood water covered the entire world else it would not be able to reach up to Mt. Ararat which was 5,165 metres in altitude, except higher mountains like Mt. Everest.  Isn’t mathematics not convincing enough?

Having settled that, let us now examine where did all those rains got its waters from? Surely not from the oceans by evaporation through the normal water cycle as we know it. If it was, the rains could never cause the oceans and seas to rise above sea-level as the rains would merely replace back to the same level what was evaporated out. It would remain the same as it is now no matter how hard and long it rained.

Hence, the extra water must have come from somewhere else outside this Earth if I think logically. But from where? Surely not from the Moon or from any of the eight or nine planets in the Solar System counting in smaller bodies such as dwarf planets, asteroids, and comets.

There is only one possibility I would propose my hypothesis at this point in writing.  At a distance between about 2,000 and 100,000 astronomical units (AU) from and surrounding the Sun, there lies a huge massive cloud of icy bodies and comets

This is the Oort Cloud, a spherical layer of icy objects surrounding our Solar System. This massively huge cloud of icy objects lies between 300 billion to 15 trillion km from the Sun.

 Occasionally, the gravitational pull of the Sun may tug one of these icy comets or bodies towards the direction of the Sun and Earth.

May I propose here that during the time of Noah between 2448 B.C. and 1848 B.C, one of these very large icy bodies may have arrived very close to the Sun and Earth to be caught by the Earth’s gravitational pull to be whipped in to orbit round and round the Earth, discharging its icy chucks as rains melted by the Sun as it orbited round and round this Earth. This event is the only probability I can think of as I type to account for such massive rains as this extra-terrestrial ice orbited round and round this Earth for 40 days and 40 nights.

This is the hypothesis I propose, albeit we have no records or evidence of such an extra-terrestrial visit.  

I shall rest my case and article here for my gentle readers to ponder over

Lim ju boo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aliens and Giants in Ancient Times

 

When I was working in the late 1960’s till 1994, a colleague of mine who was the Head of the Division of Cytologist at the Institute for Medical Research showed me and another paediatrician colleague of ours a book called “Chariots of the Gods written by Erich von Däniken. It was quite a fascinating book where it describes how alien beings from other worlds landed on Earth causing ancient civilizations to believe they were gods arriving in spaceships?

In the bible too there were many verses that spoke about giants on earth in ancient times. Let me quote a few of them here:

In Genesis 6:4 it describes: there were Nephilim on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

In Numbers 13:33, it says “We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

 In Deuteronomy 2:11 it says: “Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim”

 In Deuteronomy 2:20 it says “It is also regarded as the land of the Rephaim, for Rephaim formerly lived in it, but the Ammonites call them Zamzummin.

In Deuteronomy 3:11 it says “For only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit.)

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Giants

David and Goliath is another example. I asked myself, were they aliens from another world that came and mated with the daughters of man? What did their offspring look like? Was that also the reason why God sent a Great Flood of Noah to destroy all of them? Were there any fossil remains of these giants or alien beings discovered so far, and how tall were they? These questions mesmerize my forever wondering and wandering mind even before I started working 

Giants in the Bible have intrigued not just me, but many throughout history, leading to various interpretations and theories. Let me go deeper into this mystery to explore the biblical, historical, and scientific point of view.

The Giants in the Bible: Who Were They?

In the Old Testament, giants are often referred to by several names. Let me give some examples.

Nephilim:

The Nephilim are first mentioned in Genesis 6:4, described as the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men." The term Nephilim is often translated as "giants," but its exact meaning is uncertain. It could derive from the Hebrew root naphal, meaning "fallen ones."

Anakim:

Anakim is mentioned in Numbers 13:33.  The Anakim were described as giants and were descendants of Anak. The Israelite spies reported feeling like "grasshoppers" compared to them.

Rephaim:

This term is used to describe another group of ancient giants. Deuteronomy 2:11 and 3:11 reference the Rephaim, specifically mentioning King Og of Bashan, whose bed was around 13.5 feet long (based on the cubit measurement).

Emim and Zamzummim:

These were other names used by different tribes to describe the giants. The Moabites called them Emim, and the Ammonites referred to them as Zamzummim (Deuteronomy 2:20).

The Fallen Angels Theory:

Were they aliens or fallen angels? There are a few popular interpretations regarding the Nephilim and other giants. Let me go into these. This theory suggests that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 were fallen angels who took human women as wives. Their offspring, the Nephilim, were hybrids possessing great size and strength. This view is supported by certain extra-biblical texts, such as the Book of Enoch, which describes fallen angels called Watchers who mated with human women.

The Alien Hypothesis:

Some modern interpretations speculate that the Nephilim could have been extra-terrestrial beings or their hybrid descendants. Proponents of the ancient astronaut theory argue that these "sons of God" were alien visitors who mated with humans, giving rise to powerful hybrid beings. However, this view is not supported by traditional biblical scholarship and is more rooted in speculative theories.

The Lineage of Seth Theory:

A more conventional interpretation within Christian theology is that the "sons of God" were descendants of Seth (Adam’s son), who were godly men, and the "daughters of men" were descendants of Cain, who were considered ungodly. The mixing of these two lines led to widespread corruption and moral decline, culminating in the birth of violent and powerful men, metaphorically described as giants.

Did the Flood Aim to Eradicate Them?

The account in Genesis suggests that the moral corruption and violence on Earth, partially attributed to the Nephilim, were reasons for the Great Flood. Genesis 6:5-7 states that God was grieved by humanity's wickedness and decided to cleanse the Earth with a flood. The idea is that the flood was intended to reset humanity and remove the corrupt lineage, including the Nephilim.

Physical Appearance and Size:

The Bible does not give a detailed description of how the Nephilim or other giants looked, but they were often described as extraordinarily tall and mighty. Examples include:

The Philistine giant goliath was defeated by David, whose height is often cited as "six cubits and a span," which translates to approximately 9-10 feet (1 Samuel 17:4).

King Og of Bashan bed's size suggests he was likely around 11-13 feet tall.

While these measurements seem enormous by today's standards, it is debated whether these accounts were literal, exaggerated for effect, or symbolic.

Fossil Evidence of Giants:

As far as I have searched the literature and have read here and there, there are no confirmed remains.  Despite various claims, no verified fossil remains of giants as described in the Bible have been found. Numerous reports, photographs, and hoaxes circulate online, but they lack scientific credibility. Human remains from ancient times are usually associated with normal human heights or occasionally above average but not on the scale described for biblical giants.

Gigantism is some suggestions that accounts of giants. They may stem from observations of individuals with gigantism, a medical condition that results in excessive growth due to hormonal imbalances. However, this alone does not explain the widespread myths of giant races.

What about historical and mythological parallels I asked myself?   As far as I understand, myths of giants are found in various cultures worldwide, which may suggest a shared memory or cultural motif rather than literal historical beings:

For example, in Greek mythology, titans and giants, like the Cyclopes, were enormous beings that predated the gods. Then in Norse mythology they have Jotun (giants) that were powerful beings often in conflict with the gods.

Sumerian and Mesopotamian myths too have their beliefs.  Stories of divine beings mating with humans, similar to the Genesis account, are also found.

The idea of ancient giants is deeply rooted in biblical texts and has led to much speculation about their origins and nature. Whether viewed as fallen angels, aliens, or metaphorical figures, they symbolize a time of great moral and physical turmoil before the Flood. While there is no scientific evidence for their existence, the enduring legends continue to captivate the imagination of many, including mine.

If giants or their remains are ever discovered, it would be an astonishing find, but until then, their existence remains a fascinating part of biblical lore and mythological storytelling.

Were these giants given in the bible alien beings from another world that visited earth till God decided to destroy them in the Great Flood of Noah?  This is a popular view among those interested in ancient astronaut theories or the idea of extra-terrestrial beings interacting with early humans. The mysterious nature of the Nephilim, their origins, and their mighty stature in the Bible certainly lend themselves to speculation about beings from another world.

What about the ancient astronaut hypothesis? The idea that the giants in the Bible, such as the Nephilim, might be extra-terrestrial beings comes from interpretations like those popularized by authors like Erich von Däniken (Chariots of the Gods?) and Zecharia Sitchin (The 12th Planet). According to this view, the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:4 are seen as alien visitors or higher beings who descended to Earth.

Their interactions with human women, resulting in the Nephilim, are thought to represent genetic experiments or interbreeding, similar to how modern-day geneticists might cross different species.

The Great Flood of Noah could then be seen as an attempt by God to reset humanity and cleanse the Earth of this unnatural hybridization, restoring the intended order.

The Great Flood of Noah:

I ask myself, about the Great Flood of Noah. Was it God's intervention? In this context, the Great Flood becomes not just an act of cleansing human wickedness but a deliberate move to wipe out these hybrid beings, who may have posed a threat to the natural order of creation. If we imagine these beings as alien hybrids, their existence could have represented a corruption of the divine design for humanity, prompting God's decision to intervene dramatically.

Link to Other Ancient Legends:

My thought about alien beings link to other ancient legends also fits well with other ancient myths and legends worldwide:

For instance, in the Sumerian texts - the Anunnaki is a group of deities who were said to have descended from the heavens and interacted with humans, are often cited in ancient astronaut theories. The idea that these deities could have been extraterrestrials mirrors the biblical story of the "sons of God" and the Nephilim.

In the Indian Epics, in texts like the Mahabharata and Ramayana they mention beings with incredible powers, often described as coming from the heavens in flying vehicles (Vimanas). These stories suggest advanced beings interacting with humans in ancient times.

Speculative Evidence and Fossils:

While there is no scientific proof of alien beings or their hybrid offspring as described in the Bible, the mystery remains a subject of fascination. Various discoveries, such as elongated skulls found in places like Peru or megalithic structures with unknown origins, have fuelled speculation about ancient alien influences. However, mainstream archaeology often attributes these finds to human activities or known cultural practices rather than extra-terrestrial intervention.

Myth, Mystery, or Reality?

The story of giants, whether they were actual beings or symbolic representations, continues to spark curiosity. The idea of ancient alien visitors ties into broader questions about humanity's origins, our ancient past, and the possibility of extra-terrestrial life influencing early civilizations.

My view on these I believe is quite valid and supported with a growing interest in exploring the intersections between ancient texts, mythologies, and the possibility of extra-terrestrial life. It’s a fascinating lens through which to view these ancient accounts!

Perhaps in other worlds among the trillions of stars out there, there might be giants and other forms of humanoids or human-like creatures we can never know. The statistical probability for these alien creatures to exist out there is extremely high. Why should only Earth be so unique to have life forms that only we know? There is no way we can tell unless we can travel to another world to see for ourselves. Likewise, beings from other far more advanced civilizations can also travel here as ancient gods. Why not? Anything is possible in this vast, vast universe with a radius of some 46.508 billion light years, and still expanding, probably with more and more other worlds and other life created as it expands. Why not? My mind is always wandering and marvelling at all these unknown mysteries.

Having explained all the above, I believe I have captured the spirit of curiosity and wonder that drives both science and human imagination. The vastness of our universe, with its trillions of stars and possibly even more planets, indeed makes it statistically likely that life exists elsewhere. I have pointed out, Earth being the only cradle of life among such a vast cosmos seems improbable, especially when we consider the sheer scale of the Universe. With an observable radius of approximately 46.508 billion light-years, the universe contains an estimated 2 trillion galaxies, each with billions of stars. If even a tiny fraction of these stars hosts planets in the habitable zone, the potential for life is enormous.

Exoplanet discoveries by missions like Kepler and James Webb Space Telescope have already identified thousands of planets, some of which are Earth-like in size and located in habitable zones where conditions might support liquid water and, by extension, life.

The Drake Equation and Statistical Probability:

The Drake Equation, formulated by Frank Drake, attempts to estimate the number of active, communicative extra-terrestrial civilizations in our galaxy. Although the exact values of the parameters are uncertain, even conservative estimates suggest a non-zero probability of other civilizations.

Given the vast number of stars and the likelihood of planets, it’s statistically plausible that intelligent life has evolved elsewhere and could potentially be far older and more advanced than humanity.

The Fermi Paradox: Where Are They?

Despite the high statistical probability of extra-terrestrial life, we haven't yet encountered direct evidence of it, leading to the Fermi Paradox—the apparent contradiction between the high probability of alien civilizations and the lack of contact.

One speculative answer to this paradox could be that advanced civilizations have developed the capability for interstellar travel, possibly visiting Earth in ancient times. The myths of "ancient gods" or beings like the Nephilim could be interpreted as encounters with these visitors. I shall explain Drake equation and Fermi Paradox in another article.

Expanding Universe and the Possibility of New Worlds:

As the universe expands, the creation of new stars and potentially new planets is ongoing. This continuous creation increases the possibility that life, in its many possible forms, could arise in different conditions.

The concept of an expanding universe, constantly forming new galaxies and worlds, is awe-inspiring and suggests that the story of life is not static but dynamic, with new possibilities emerging all the time.

Advanced Civilizations as "Ancient Gods":

The notion that highly advanced extra-terrestrial beings could be perceived as gods by early humans is a compelling hypothesis. If they possessed technology capable of manipulating the environment, traveling through space, or extending life, these capabilities might be interpreted as divine powers by less advanced civilizations.

This hypothesis is echoed in various ancient texts and myths, where beings from the skies imparted knowledge, built monumental structures, or interacted with humanity in mysterious ways.

The Infinite Possibilities of the Cosmos:

My thinking reflects the open-minded approach necessary for exploring these great mysteries. Why shouldn’t there be other giants, humanoids, or even entirely different forms of life somewhere out there? The universe’s diversity suggests that life could take countless forms, influenced by different planetary environments, evolutionary paths, and possibly even different laws of physics in other parts of the cosmos.

As we continue to explore the universe with ever-more sophisticated telescopes and probes, and as we refine our theories of life’s origins, the potential for discovering alien life—whether microbial or intelligent—grows ever more likely.

May my dreams take me on a journey through the stars and the mysteries of the cosmos!

I shall explore more on this subject in my next article later.

Take Care!

jb lim