Dinosaurs in Noah’s Great Flood?
Yesterday, I attended a talk in Evangel Bible-Presbyterian Church in Oval Damansara in Kuala Lumpur. The talk was on Creation given by two scientists, Dr Don Batten and Dr Kee Fui Kon.
Dr Don Batten spoke about the evolution of life on earth, and Dr Kee on Noah’s Great Flood in the eyes of the Church against the eyes of science. Their view was that the Creation of Earth took only 7 days as mentioned in Genesis of the Bible, and the Great Flood of Noah together with the existence of dinosaurs according to Dr Kee took place only a few thousand years ago, and not millions of years ago.
As I am a bit short of hearing I could not catch up with what they spoke. But here’s my independent personal view as a scientist myself.
Before we write, most people ask, during the Great Flood of Noah, how was it possible to accommodate huge terrible lizards like dinosaurs, and in pairs too into his ark?
Before we answer, let’s look at the timeline on the creation of Earth and life on Earth in the eyes of Science.
Mya here stands for “millions of years ago.”
1. 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago (Mya). Accretion of Earth
2. 4,200 million years ago (Mya) Atmosphere and oceans form
3. 4,000 million years ago (Mya) Prebiotic chemistry became possible
4. 3,800 million years ago RNA world shown by the first chemical fossil
available (viruses)
5. 3,600 million years ago the first DNA protein life came into existence
6. 3,500 million years ago LUCA: Archaea / Bacteria spilt and also
photosynthesis (autotrophy) began.
7. 2,700 – 1,900 million years ago the first eukaryotes / sexual reproduction
became possible.
8. 1,000 Mya?
9. 650 Mya Metazoans
10. 575 Oldest large organisms
11. 555 Mya Oldest sponge fossils
12. 542 – 488 Mya Cambrian Radiation
13. 525 Mya Earliest vertebrates
14. 440 Mya First vascular land plants
15. 425 Mya First jawed vertebrates
16. 420 Mya Earliest terrestrial animals
17. 396 Mya First insects
18. 365 Mya Plants evolves seeds and first tetrapods
19. 354 Mya Insects flight
20. 350 Mya First land-dwelling vertebrates
21. 240 Mya First dinosaurs
22. 210 Mya First mammals
23. 200 Mya Pangea breakup begins
24. 150 Mya Archaeopteryx / birds flight
25. 140 Mya Flowering plants
26. 128 – 124 Dinosaurs flight
27. 125 Mya Mammalian gliding flight
28. 105 – 95 Mya Gondwanaland breakup
29. 90- 80 Mya Formation of Galapagos geological hot spot
30. 57 – 53 Mya Whale ancestor
31. 55 Mya Australia breaks away from Antarctica
32. 51 Mya Mammalian powered flights (bats)
33. 50 Mya First fossil Equidae
34. 45.6 Whale ancestor
35. 40 Mya Primate order diverges
36. 35 Mya First grasses evolve
37. 30 Mya Old-world / new-world monkey spilt
38. 25 Mya Old-world monkey / apes split. Also, Drosophila melanogaster / D. obscura split
39. 15 Mya Apes migrate to Asia
40. 6 -7 Mya Sahelanthropus
41. 5 - 4 Mya: Common ancestors of chimps and humans. Formation of current
Galapagos Islands
42. 3.6 Mya Panama Isthmus rise / Lucy fossil / Australopithecus afarensis
footprints
43. 2.5 Mya Tool use
44. 1.8 Mya Homo habilis out of Africa
45. 1.6 Mya Homo erectus in Asia
46. 600,000 years ago Human / Neanderthal split
47. 500,000 years ago Homo erectus use fire
48. 355,000 Homo heidelbergensis footprints
49. 200,000 years ago Anatomically modern human
50. 250,000 – 160,000 Homo sapiens
51. 120,000 Homo language possible
52. 100,000 years ago Wolf / dog split
53. 79,000 – 15,000 years ago Start of Wisconsin glaciations
54. 50,000 years ago. Humans migrate from Asia to Australia
55. 45,000 years ago. Megafauna extinction in Australia
56. 30,000 years ago. Human migration from Asia to North America
57. 14,000 – 10,000 years ago. Domestication of dog and Megafauna extinction
in North America
58. 12,000 years ago. Early agriculture
59. 8,000 years ago Domestication of cattle
60. 6,000 years ago Domestication of horse
61. 3,000 years ago Iron tools
Major extinctions of life took place during:
62. 445 Mya in the Late Ordovician
63. 375 Mya Late Devonian
64. 251 Mya End Permian
65. 200 Mya Late Triassic
66. 65 Mya Cretaceous-Tertiary
We shall now concentrate on the Cambrian Radiation that happened 542 – 488 million years ago in the eyes of science as I see it.
555 million years ago when the oldest sponge existed, there was no question of Noah bringing only sponges into his ark. Much after down the timeline of life on Earth were the dinosaurs where people often ask how could Noah bring in all those “terrible lizards” in pairs into his ark?
Let’s have a look at this problem when non-bird dinosaurs lived between about 245 and 66 million years ago, in a time known as the Mesozoic Era. This was many millions of years before the first modern humans, Homo sapiens, appeared.
But before we discuss further, calculation of the date of the flood based on literal interpretation of the Old Testament has been a scholarly activity for two millennia. The seventeenth century estimate given by the Irish Bishop James Ussher has been acknowledged among many of the devout.
The calculation is undertaken by adding the genealogies beginning in Genesis 11:10. This is the account of Shem: Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became father of Arphaxad. Arphaxad is then designated father to Shelah, Shelah to Eber, Eber to Pelg, and so on until Abram and his successors which eventually brings one to the division of the kingdom at the death of Solomon.
In this way, Bishop Ussher computed that the earth had been created in 4004 BC and that the flood occurred in 2350 BC which was henceforth accepted as the "traditional" biblical date, (though there is rival literal interpretation similarly inspired, setting the date at 2459 BC). These traditional chronologies were acceptable among the learned until the foundations of religion were shaken by Darwin and a succession of natural historians including George Curier, William Buckland, and finally, that " high priest of uniformitarianism" Charles Lyell, who collectively contribute to the modern, predictable, comfortable, uniform, manageable version of the world that we know, that puts the Great Flood of Noah far earlier than believed by the church using evidence-based records. Science showed Earth was created between 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago, and not in a few thousand years?
Now let’s return to the Great Flood of Noah. The timing of Noah's flood, according to biblical chronology, would place it thousands of years before the Cambrian explosion, which occurred around 541 million years ago. Therefore, it happened long before the Cambrian explosion, which marks a significant period in Earth's history characterized by the rapid diversification of life forms.
I asked Dr Kee after his talk if
the dinosaurs came before the Cambrian Radiation or after that, he told me it
was before the Cambrian Explosion, and that happened only a few thousand, and not
a few million years ago as taught by science.
If the Great Flood occurred before the Cambrian radiation where there was no vast diversity of life on Earth it would mean the absence of very large reptiles like the dinosaurs for which it would be almost for Noah to accommodate even just one into his ark let alone a pair of each.
Before the Cambrian Period there were only small life form and the majority of living organisms on the whole were small, unicellular organisms including worms, stromatolite, trilobites, anomalocaris, Opabinia regalis and halkieriids and simple Ediacaran fauna. There were no other animals two of its kind as describe in Genesis.
The International Commission on Stratigraphy lists the Cambrian Period as beginning at 538.8 million years ago and ending at 485.4 million years ago. There were no large animals like dinosaurs and flying reptiles then.
Dinosaurs are a diverse group of reptiles of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, between 243 and 233.23 million years ago (mya), although the exact origin and timing of the evolution of dinosaurs is a subject of active research. They became the dominant terrestrial vertebrates after the Triassic–Jurassic extinction event 201.3 mya and their dominance continued throughout the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods. The fossil record shows that birds are feathered dinosaurs, having evolved from earlier theropods during the Late Jurassic epoch, and are the only dinosaur lineage known to have survived the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event approximately 66 mya. Dinosaurs can therefore be divided into avian dinosaurs—birds—and the extinct non-avian dinosaurs, which are all dinosaurs other than birds.
Since dinosaurs are huge reptiles and “terrible lizards” many of them flying, it would almost be impossible for Noah to catch them and put them into his ark along with huge amounts of food they would need for 40 days and 40 nights of continuous rain.
Dinosaurs are not one type of reptile, but many types. How could it be possible to bring all of them into Noah’s ark often people ask, including the various types of food they need. Some of the dinosaurs are huge and very massive. How could Noah possibly catch them and in pairs too, males and females? The amount of food to feed all these animals would be beyond any ship or ark. Some of the dinosaurs are flying reptiles. How could Noah catch flying reptiles and flying birds.
The logistics of fitting all dinosaurs, along with other diverse species, onto Noah's Ark present significant challenges from a practical standpoint. Large dinosaurs would indeed require vast amounts of space and resources, including food, water, and suitable habitats. Additionally, capturing and transporting such massive creatures, along with ensuring the presence of both males and females, would be immensely difficult.
As for flying reptiles and birds, capturing and accommodating them on an Ark would pose additional challenges, especially given their ability to fly. It's worth noting that religious interpretations of the story of Noah's Ark often involve miraculous elements or divine intervention to address these logistical difficulties. Some believers view the story as allegorical rather than a literal historical event, while others may interpret it differently based on their faith tradition.
Ultimately, reconciling religious narratives with scientific understanding often involves a nuanced approach that respects both faith perspectives and empirical evidence. Many religious individuals and communities find ways to integrate their faith beliefs with scientific knowledge, recognizing that both can offer valuable insights into the mysteries of the natural world.
My feeling is, if the Great Flood came before the Cambrian Period where there were only small creatures, or long after the dinosaurs became extinct except the birds that are “glorified reptiles” then it may be a possibly to accommodate the much lesser species of life.
It is clearly said “after forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.
But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water all over the surface of the earth; so, it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.”
(Genesis 8: 6 – 12)
These verses clearly showed the Great Flood came only after the dinosaurs were no more there and only raven and doves replaced them as “gloried reptiles.” This means to me, there was no question of Noah accommodating huge reptiles of all kinds into his ark. It may have happened long after the Cambrian Period and long after the dinosaurs disappeared.
But there is a problem here. If it was long after the Cambrian Period, let us say, from 63 million years ago when primates and split into two groups, known as the haplorrhines (dry-nosed primates) and the strepsirrhines (wet-nosed primates) appeared till 47 million years ago when early whales that gave birth appeared 47 million years ago, then Noah would still have to deal with an enormously large species of animals that were already evolved. Currently, scientists estimate there are at least between 8 – 10 million species of life on Earth. If the Great Flood occurred in 2350 BC after earth was created in 4004 BC as claimed by the church, then Noah will still have to deal with at least 6 -8 million species of life, and in pairs too, for him to put them into his ark? This is a sheer impossible task, far more difficult than accommodating huge and small dinosaurs?
The logistics of fitting all species onto Noah's Ark, is indeed a challenge to reconcile the biblical narrative with our understanding of biodiversity. Some religious interpretations suggest that the animals brought onto the Ark were representative pairs, rather than every single species, while others view the story as allegorical rather than literal.
But if the Great Flood occurred before the Cambrian Explosion when much less species of life existed, then according to scientists, Noah must have existed 541 million years ago where no humans was around except Noah and all those generations that came before him?
I don’t think neither the Church nor Science can solve this dilemma?
Then we also have another problem to answer. Was the flood of Noah localized or worldwide and where did the water go after the flood?
The story of Noah's flood, as described in the Bible, is typically interpreted as a worldwide event. However, interpretations vary among different religious and cultural beliefs. As for where the water went after the flood, some interpretations suggest it receded back into the oceans and other bodies of water, while others propose that it evaporated or was absorbed into the earth.
If it was a worldwide event, then the entire Earth will be covered with water. This means there is no possibility for all the waters to drain into the oceans as the whole earth itself is an ocean.
The concept of a worldwide flood raises questions about the feasibility of such an event given our understanding of Earth's hydrology and the vast diversity of life. It's a topic that has been debated among scholars, scientists, and theologians for centuries, with varying interpretations and explanations offered.
Ultimately, interpretations of religious texts like the story of Noah's flood can vary widely based on individual beliefs, cultural traditions, and scholarly analysis. Integrating these interpretations with scientific understanding often involves nuanced perspectives and ongoing dialogue between faith and reason. See my write up on this here:
Was The Great Flood of Noah a Global Event? And Where Did the Rains Got Its Waters
https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/search?q=flood+of+noah
But the church claims the creation of Earth and Noah Flood occurred only a few thousand years, and not millions of years ago as scientists calculated. Who is right? This debate has been going on for centuries.
The Church believes the entire Creation of Earth took only 7 days accordingly to Genesis in the Bible, whereas Science say it took 4,500 – 4,400 million years ago for Earth to be form properly till 200,000 years ago for anatomically modern hominids to exist, 250,000 – 160,000 years for Homo sapiens like Noah to exist, and 120,000 Homo language becoming possible.
I think the difficulty between God and us is, we tend to interpret “one
day” given in Genesis as our time of 24 hours a day, and not the Maker and
Creator (God) time which to Him “one day” is actually millions of years to us.
Mortal humans can only live up to 100 years maximum, but God is eternal. There
is no match.
It is clearly stated there “For a
thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is
past, and as a watch in the night” (Psalm 90:4).
“You do not know what will happen
tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little
time and then vanishes away” (James 4:14).
But if anyone at all, whether from the church or outside thinks that these verses are not correct by equating his time and lifespan against the eternity of God by claiming his "one day" is the same as God "one day" given as "morning and evening" of creation in Genesis, is a highly arrogant, self-conceited person who equates himself with God. Such a person is both scientifically and spiritually blind. He must as well delete both these two verses in the Bible and replace them with his own version to read as:
"For a thousand years in thy sight is the same as my thousand years here on earth, and thy one day in creation in Genesis is the same as my one day that I see here on earth, and my life is not a vapour that vanishes away"
See explanation on:
The Origin of Heavens and Earth: Science vs The Bible
https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2024/
But are we willing to accept these
verses given in the Bible as gospel truth, or do we wish to delete them to equate our time and our
lifespan as the same as that of God? This decision is up to us to decide by
using our own arrogance and conceited thinking. To me, time is eternal for God,
whereas my lifespan can last at most 100 years. This means for me, when God
says He created heavens and earth in 7 days, he uses His eternal time scale to
measure, and not my time.
This is the same as, for instance, a scientist as a creator, carries out an experiment on rats for 100 days. A scientist would naturally use his human time as a creator of the experiment to measure the length of his experiment on rats and not use rat’s time to measure that can live usually for only between 12 to 18 months. Even if we take the human lifespan of a 100 years (36,525 days) and say, at maximum of 2 years (730 day) for a rat, then the rat’s life span is only 0.02 that of a human. There is just no comparison. How could we be so arrogant as to use rat’s time as our standard of reference. Naturally we will use our human time as a creator of our own experiment for our own creation on rats. We will write down the time we took and record this down as understood without one iota of argument and publish the experiment in a scientific journal because this is understood. No scientist would measure the time taken of his own creation of his own experiment using rat’s time, unless he is insane. Don’t we wish to respect God the Creator for using His time as His standard of reference given in Genesis? It was His own experiment on Creation, He thinks fit and appropriate than insisting it was our time in days that numbered.
Let us give ourselves another example. Let us say on average a rat lives up to 15 months (450 days) and the
experiment by a scientist as a creator took 100 days. This is already 22 % of
the rat’s life span. The rat sees it as a very long time in its life for the experiment
(creation) to complete, but for the scientist who created the experiment it is
only 450 / 36525 x 100 = 1.2 % of his life span to complete the experimental
creation. There is no comparison here, let alone just 4.5 billion years in the creation
of Earth in the eyes of a scientist who measured it compared it to time eternal
for God, making billions of years tending towards zero in time for Him but a
very long time for us. We need to respect this scientific and spiritual truth,
and not measure length of time using our own personal yardstick. If we do not
agree with this mathematical truth, then just delete all the verses in Genesis
and replace them with our own.
Don’t we think so? If we do not agree, then we should also delete both verses, Psalm 90:4 and James 4:14 and replace them with your own thinking and your own version. But leave me out because you are more scientific, more educated and more intelligent than anyone else.
But if we can accept this, and
fully respect God, and not use our own human mortal thinking, then both the
Church and Science will be aligned perfectly in agreement with each other on
the length of Creation, and they will not be antagonists to each other anymore.
Respect God to the highest whatever He wrote there in His own words in Genesis,
and never insist on using our own human version that causes confusion to others
and leads them astray.
To interpret the verses in Genesis literally word-by-word, verse-by-verse on the 7 days God needed to take for creation is no different from Nicodemus, the ruler of the Jews. Nicodemus was a very wise and learned person, but he could not understand the meaning of ‘being born again’ He interpreted what Jesus said to him literally in John 3:1-7 asking how can a person who was already old enter into his mother’s womb to be born again? The same if we believe God took 7 days in the eyes, when scientists the world over through their tens of years of research and hard labour tell us it took thousands of millions of years for Earth and the evolution of life to take place. Science is evidence-based, not literal blind acceptance. This is because when we are blind, we tend to interpret the verses written in Genesis literally and accept them literally using our own interpretation and thinking instead of looking them through the eyes of God who wrote them there.
In short, it depends how you read and intepret time written in the Bible, and time as measured and seen in in the eyes of man
Furthermore, when Earth was first
formed in Creation, the rotation of Earth was much faster. Scientists have
calculated the length of the day was less than 6 hours. The Earth’s rotation
currently has slowed it down to 24 hours due to the loss of rotational energy
caused by tidal frictions and the braking action of the Moon that causes tides
twice a day on both sides of Earth.
So, does the church interpret that each day of creation took only 6 or 24 hours? Which is which? Then explain to us and give us your answer. I think it would be more respectful to God as a Creator if we use His time written as “one day” as equivalent to millions of years of our time in creation and evolution. This will instantly solve all our headaches between the Church and the scientific community.
In due respect to other people's thinking, I don't use my earthly human days and thinking to count heavenly days. It will give me a headache.
See also:
Did Noah Bring in All those Billions of Life Forms into his Ark?
https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/search?q=noah+flood
See also my write up on “headaches and how to cure them here.”
https://scientificlogic.blogspot.com/2024/04/migraine-and-headaches-how-to-deal-with.html
- lim ju boo
No comments:
Post a Comment